This episode shares insights on how to better communicate complex wind and flood hazards related to landfalling hurricanes, with guests Bill Read, Jonathan Brazzell and Brian and Lisa Flanakin.

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Transcript:

00;00;03;09 - 00;00;33;02
Hal Needham
Well, here we are in late October and hurricane season is wrapping up for those of us along the western Gulf Coast, in the eastern Gulf and southeastern U.S., especially in the state of Florida. The rest remains a bit higher through at least late October or early November. As we look back on lessons learned this hurricane season. I invited my friends with the National Tropical Weather Conference to come visit me in Galveston to record a live session at the historic Tremont House Hotel in downtown Galveston.

00;00;33;15 - 00;00;53;28
Hal Needham
The theme of our session was preparedness, but we took the opportunity to also look at a hot topic in tropical weather right now, hurricane risk communication. I brought my audio recorder with me. I've been doing that a lot. Maybe annoying people. It seems like everywhere I go, people have really interesting insights and I'm often like, Why did I not record that so I can remember it?

00;00;54;05 - 00;01;16;15
Hal Needham
And also to share with our listeners. And so I did that. I brought my audio recorder to the conference. I recorded a few conversations kind of offline. Our guest for this podcast episode, these conversations that I recorded here in Galveston at the conference, our guests include Bill Reed, former director of the National Hurricane Center. Jonathan Brazil, National Weather Service meteorologist and hydrologist.

00;01;16;22 - 00;01;44;04
Hal Needham
And Brian Flanagan, a weather enthusiast who works in the energy industry. Before we get into these conversations, a bit about the GeoTrek podcast, GeoTrek investigates the impact of extreme weather and natural disasters on individuals and communities. Our goal is to help you improve your decision making, risk assessment and communication and related to extreme events so you can take action to make yourself, your family and your community more resilient.

00;01;44;21 - 00;02;03;11
Hal Needham
Hey, before we get into this episode, we have a favor to ask of you. We'd really appreciate if you'd take a moment to subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcast platform. Your subscription helps us mark progress, which enables us to make more professional partnerships moving forward and ensures many more episodes of the GeoTrek podcast in the future.

00;02;03;26 - 00;02;26;06
Hal Needham
Okay, Well, let's jump into a beautiful October weekend in Galveston, where we're recording these conversations. We'll try to cover the content as efficiently as possible because after these conversations, we're all going over to Galveston October 1st to enjoy bratwurst, sauerkraut, drinks and live polka music. Our first guest on this episode is Bill Reid, a meteorologist and former staff with the National Weather Service.

00;02;26;15 - 00;02;40;20
Hal Needham
Bill is also former director of the National Hurricane Center. He lives in League City, Texas, just north of me. We both reside in Galveston County, Texas. Bill, really appreciate you taking time to come on the podcast today.

00;02;41;26 - 00;02;48;12
Bill Reid
Oh, my pleasure. Anything I can do in the comfort of the home, unshaven in a t shirts, fine with me.

00;02;48;21 - 00;02;59;19
Hal Needham
Bill, this has been fun this year. You and I have been on the National Tropical Weather Conference interviewing a lot of people, having a lot of interesting interactions, and it's been great getting to know you better. And we've all been learning through the process.

00;03;00;14 - 00;03;14;24
Bill Reid
Yes, it has. And we're meeting a lot of people. Each one of us can bring someone to the table that the others don't know. So it's been quite, quite productive, I think, for what the purpose of which is giving training to people in the industry.

00;03;15;12 - 00;03;40;29
Hal Needham
Oh, for sure. Especially in our region. You get into Texas, Louisiana, really the whole Gulf Coast. Hurricanes affect everyone in some way, though this hurricane season seems really distinctive. It was actually quite quiet for much of the season. Even getting into July and August, there was very little activity then. All of a sudden in late September, there's a major hurricane strike in southwest Florida with unfortunately catastrophic impacts, a lot of loss of life and property.

00;03;41;07 - 00;03;48;05
Hal Needham
When you look back, I mean, you have many decades experience working with hurricanes. Does this season relate to any other seasons that you can remember?

00;03;49;27 - 00;04;20;16
Bill Reid
Actually, this one was closer to the typical season when I was the early years of my career where there would be a maybe a little minor activity at the beginning of the season, then a quiet period through July and much of August, and then a flurry of activity in September and then a quick drop off. So the particulars are exciting, but the the the trend is actually not that far off of what you see historically.

00;04;21;08 - 00;04;42;13
Hal Needham
You know, it was funny getting into July and August. People said, oh, this this season, so it's dead. But some people started saying actually there is a period there where climatological we were right about where we should be. I think we've just been so influenced by these hyperactive years, like 2020 and 2021. You know, we got used to getting into like, you know, the K storm in, in, in July and August kind of thing.

00;04;42;22 - 00;04;44;24
Hal Needham
This year it was maybe a little closer to normal.

00;04;45;24 - 00;05;09;25
Bill Reid
Yeah. The those the really the better part of the last decade or so there's been an inordinate amount of storms that form even before the June 1st kick off day of the hurricane season. And people get used to that sort of thing. Pretty quickly. And when you have a season that doesn't do that, it's people start thinking it's a weak season, but it's just it's just the wrong way to think about it.

00;05;09;29 - 00;05;18;10
Bill Reid
1900, the first storm of the season didn't Farm Bill the 31st of August, and that's the one that made landfall in Galveston in September.

00;05;19;00 - 00;05;33;15
Hal Needham
Right. So it was, I guess, getting in towards the heart of the season there. But you're saying that year did not have a lot of activity, say, in July and August, and then all of a sudden getting into like the last day of August and September. All of a sudden, we have one hurricane and it's a very deadly one.

00;05;34;04 - 00;05;53;08
Bill Reid
Yeah, it was a it was an otherwise nondescript season, though. It's somewhat of an asterisk because you really don't know what you may have missed over the ocean. But more recent year was 1992, a hurricane Andrew. The storm didn't form until a middle of August. Nothing before. And I'm sure everybody was thinking the season is going to be a dud.

00;05;53;08 - 00;06;13;21
Bill Reid
And other than the landfall of a Category five in Florida, probably once it died in 1983, here in the Houston Galveston area, there was a 1983 season, had four storms and one landfall in the U.S. It happened to be a Category three and it happened to be here in Galveston.

00;06;14;16 - 00;06;25;00
Hal Needham
Wow. So, you know, we often hear the saying it only takes one. And some of these seasons, it's like that, right, where you have one big storm that stands out. But if it hits a populated area, it can do a lot of impact.

00;06;25;22 - 00;06;43;27
Bill Reid
Yeah, And I think for the most part, I never I found that the fact that we have we had had two of those examples in our area here where I do public preparedness and outreach kind of stuff on hurricanes is pretty easy sell to convince people that it only takes one and you really can't pay much attention to the weather.

00;06;43;27 - 00;06;47;17
Bill Reid
It's a real busy or a very light numbers wise active season.

00;06;47;27 - 00;06;59;24
Hal Needham
That's true. And it's all about the impacts, right? Loss of life, loss of property, things like that. If we have a really busy season where there are all fish storms out there east of Bermuda doesn't really have a direct impact as much to people.

00;07;00;22 - 00;07;11;23
Bill Reid
Yeah, 2010 was a by many measures, the most active season of my tenure at the Hurricane Center. And we had nothing of consequence in the U.S..

00;07;12;21 - 00;07;14;28
Hal Needham
Right. Just a lot of activity out over the open water.

00;07;15;20 - 00;07;17;06
Bill Reid
Or in the in the.

00;07;17;06 - 00;07;17;24
Hal Needham
Caribbean.

00;07;18;08 - 00;07;19;00
Bill Reid
In the Caribbean.

00;07;19;00 - 00;07;38;05
Hal Needham
Yeah, Yeah. Bill, there's been a lot of talk about communicating risk, especially after a hurricane in some people are saying, you know, people on the ground in western Florida were confused. There's been even people questioning if the cone of uncertainty and some of these other risk mapping products are causing a lot of confusion. What's what's your take on that?

00;07;38;05 - 00;07;44;12
Hal Needham
What insights do you have when when we look at how we predict and map out risk and how people may perceive that?

00;07;45;27 - 00;08;13;11
Bill Reid
Yeah, I think about that a lot. Even back ten years ago when I was still working in the business. And when you really talk to people, I think it goes back to the the statement Max Mayfield like to make. They get fixated on the skinny black line. Well well, the the lately it translates into criticism of the of the limitations of the cone forecast.

00;08;13;11 - 00;08;43;23
Bill Reid
It's not so much the cone that's causing the problem it's fixating on the skinny black line that if you don't draw it they can very quickly visualize the center line of the cone and in particular with the and at least on all the national news feeds, including the stations that are exclusively, whether right up until the Tuesday, I'm sure they were mostly saying the they're talking about how long had it been since Tampa had been hit.

00;08;43;23 - 00;09;04;10
Bill Reid
So they were actually also focused, even if they weren't excluding other areas, they were really focused on what the impact would be in Tampa. The thing we need to learn from that is that the uncertainty exists. It gets last year closer, but in the timeframe that people have to do something, the uncertainty can be pretty large.

00;09;04;10 - 00;09;24;29
Hal Needham
Bill Hurricanes inflict, you know, multiple hazards. There's the wind field, there's a heavy rain, the storm surge, possible tornadoes. These spread out over sometimes a fairly large geographic area. When you're talking about this focus on the line, do you think people sometimes think of hurricanes more almost like a point or just a very small area that's really smaller than the actual impact?

00;09;25;25 - 00;09;50;11
Bill Reid
Absolutely. Especially when it comes to the the storm surge problems are many of our coastlines here along the Gulf War. But certainly any any big storm like Rita. Right. That's making landfall, say, in southeast Texas or extreme southwest Louisiana, the storm surge threat goes all the way over sometimes as far as the Florida panhandle, as you well know.

00;09;50;24 - 00;10;00;15
Bill Reid
And the same problem exists in south Florida, along the West Coast, not so much on the East Coast because of the the bathymetry along the coastline there.

00;10;01;07 - 00;10;11;20
Hal Needham
So it's this concept that people maybe look at where the eye is forecast to go, where the eye may go. And they're not realizing to the right of that you can get some really extensive hazards along the coastline.

00;10;12;14 - 00;10;29;10
Bill Reid
Yeah, I think the Rita flooding, of course, the damaged levee system contributed partly, but Rita flooded re flooded some areas even in south east Louisiana, where they didn't have winds above maybe 30 knots through the whole storm.

00;10;30;08 - 00;10;52;17
Hal Needham
Yeah, and that's interesting. And, you know, we talk about the cone. If a storm actually tracks on the right side of the cone and then the impacts are the worst near and to the right of the eye, you could get a lot of really catastrophic impacts outside of where the cone was. And I've been hearing people say some people may even interpret the cone, misinterpret the cone and think it means this is where the extent of possible impacts can be.

00;10;52;17 - 00;10;56;10
Hal Needham
Right. And obviously, we know there can be really deadly impacts outside of that cone.

00;10;57;07 - 00;11;19;13
Bill Reid
Yeah, it's it's it's fairly disappointing that cones been around for almost 20 years now and it's got a big, big explanation that this is not the impacts. It's strictly a way to visualize what the highest probability of where the center will be. And for a lot of storms, that's the is the important factor and it works just fine.

00;11;19;25 - 00;11;35;13
Bill Reid
But you get one running a very oblique angle like a lot of storms that recurve coming towards Florida, then very small changes in the track of the storm can make large changes in where the landfall occurs. And I think that creates some of the problem, too.

00;11;35;19 - 00;11;41;20
Hal Needham
I see what you're saying. So if you shift that track 30, 40 miles, you might shift your landfall more than 100 miles for example.

00;11;42;09 - 00;12;13;15
Bill Reid
Yeah. Yeah. It's more the angle that you're concerned with there. Whereas when it's perpendicular to the coast, like a Laura Delta or IDA, the affected Louisiana, those kind of deviations, while the impacts were large, the visualization didn't change the area that much. So it was going to be impacted. And as we were talking about yesterday, a simple 20 mile further west track of Laura would have been catastrophic storm surge in the Lake Charles bad enough as the storm was there.

00;12;14;11 - 00;12;23;02
Hal Needham
Bill, what do you tell people when you feel like they're just fixated on the point of landfall on where the eye is going or, you know, the centerline of the cone? How do you redirect them?

00;12;24;11 - 00;13;03;05
Bill Reid
Okay. I'll give you a real life example. The in Hurricane Ike, when the first hurricane watches went up, the forecast was somewhere between Matagorda Bay and Corpus Christi for the skinny black line. And the next couple of model runs drifted a little farther south and people started to think we were heading towards Brownsville on that, but we were still 60, 60 to 72 hours out from landfall, the state of Texas Emergency Management decided they needed to start rushing assets to get people out of the lower Rio Grande Valley.

00;13;03;05 - 00;13;29;22
Bill Reid
And if they had done that, they would not have had assets to get people out of the southeast Texas, where the eventual landfall was. And it basically boiled down to a calm discussion with the leadership team there that that there's uncertainty. There's still a chance. There's some models that are indicating it would come as far east as the Galveston area.

00;13;29;22 - 00;13;51;24
Bill Reid
And we're not committed yet to a this is exactly where it's going to go. We almost never are. And as it got closer and the started working its way, the track forecast and the models started coming in further up the coast, I noticed from from calls I was getting that evacuations weren't happening in our area up here. And it was the same thing.

00;13;51;24 - 00;14;14;19
Bill Reid
I had to make a call and talk with some of the decision makers and explain that there's almost as good a chance at it'll make landfall in Galveston as it would be in Matagorda. And even if that was a case where a big it's a big storm, I said even if it goes into Matagorda, you're going to flood Galveston Island, probably would have flooded it worse than what happened.

00;14;14;26 - 00;14;31;03
Bill Reid
Sure. That's I think that's the big the key to success on these is having meteorologists that understand the thing embedded or at least on on as part of the discussion on decision makers meetings.

00;14;31;21 - 00;14;32;20
Hal Needham
Yeah no that's.

00;14;32;26 - 00;14;40;01
Bill Reid
I've got a lot on their plate. It's not understanding all the nuances of our meteorology is is asking a lot.

00;14;40;17 - 00;15;03;11
Hal Needham
Bill during in I've heard this sociological concept of anchoring so like you know the early forecast runs people see that and they almost get fixated on it and so people got fixated on Tampa that when ships started happening. I've heard some people have had an opinion that people were fixated on those early runs and that they didn't let their mind change that with with Ike.

00;15;03;11 - 00;15;28;08
Hal Needham
You know, it started looking like it's coming to central Texas and then some of those model runs started trending south. Do you think people just got that in the brain and were convinced like this is going to be a Corpus Christi or a South Padre Island then and just we're maybe too fixated on that and weren't open to like then the track shifting farther north because it sounds like there was a change in the track then and you almost had to follow up with them and let them know that this is still quite uncertain.

00;15;28;08 - 00;15;29;08
Hal Needham
This can move around a lot.

00;15;30;26 - 00;15;57;19
Bill Reid
Yeah. And it was changing. It wasn't. It was changing. Almost every forecast. There was a very noisy model, guys. Yeah, it's like, what, 15 years ago almost. So the model improvements are phenomenal that we've had since then and we don't get that much fluctuation. But the I like the studies that show that I don't I personally don't didn't sense that when I talk to people.

00;15;58;16 - 00;16;28;18
Bill Reid
In fact a different aspect of anchoring that I get. The sense is that is the risk aversion of people. If you really don't like risk and there's a hurricane forecast that shows your area that that's what you'll anchor on because you don't want to be here for that one. If you're not risk averse, you might start anchoring. Let's go to Mississippi and get anchor on that, because you're not you're not you're not inclined to want to evacuate anyway and you're you don't mind the risk.

00;16;28;18 - 00;16;30;06
Bill Reid
So that gives you you're out.

00;16;30;18 - 00;16;33;29
Hal Needham
So in a way, people might be predisposed to maybe what they want to hear.

00;16;34;18 - 00;16;36;05
Bill Reid
Yep, that's what I think.

00;16;36;22 - 00;17;07;02
Hal Needham
Yeah, That's very interesting. Jonathan Brazile from the National Weather Service in Lake Charles, he always talks about how you'll drive yourself crazy if you just take to heart every change in every model run, Right? It's shifting west now. It's shifting east now it's back to west. He really encourages people to look probabilistically. So in other words, his take on this is with all these shifts, sometimes your probability of exceeding a wind threshold or a flood threshold at a given location really is not changing as much as you might think from all these little track shifts.

00;17;07;02 - 00;17;22;09
Hal Needham
And I wanted to kind of pivot our conversation to talking about when things when we talk about probabilistic forecast. I remember you said at one point every forecast by nature is probabilistic. What did you mean by that? And could you explain that to our audience a little bit?

00;17;22;20 - 00;17;46;20
Bill Reid
Sure. You know, you have you can go find your sunrise and sunset and and type things. They call them forecast because it's in the future. But actually they've got all the data they need to come up with the exact place, the timing of those events. But almost everything else in nature doesn't fit that mold. We don't have all the infrared.

00;17;46;20 - 00;18;08;25
Bill Reid
We're starting off right at the get go and we make a forecast and the weather, weather, end of it. We have an incomplete picture of all the aspects of the atmosphere that are going to cause things to change over the next hour, half a day, two or three days. And then when you get out to the 3 to 5 day part of the forecast, it can be pretty monumental.

00;18;08;25 - 00;18;40;02
Bill Reid
The amount of things that are missing, they produce the forecast so that the stuff that the Hurricane Center uses to make these forecasts, a lot of it required, does a lot of simulation type runs to to get you what the probability might be of any different aspects of that. And that's what I meant by that. It's not it's never you never going to catch somebody that knows what they're doing and they're saying there's 100% chance that this hurricane is going to make landfall in Tampa three days from now.

00;18;40;02 - 00;18;43;27
Hal Needham
So there's just too much uncertainty in the future to be able to pinpoint like that.

00;18;44;10 - 00;19;05;01
Bill Reid
Yeah, when it gets on the impacts, it gets even more complicated because the the like is, you know what, the storm surge, the shape of the coastline, the angle of approach, the shape of the wind field, there's all these factors that you really don't measure, that you're trying to estimate that play into that. So you have to give it a kind of a broad brush.

00;19;05;19 - 00;19;12;06
Bill Reid
What are the probabilities of exceeding these values in order to give people some kind of guideline to make their decision?

00;19;12;15 - 00;19;30;08
Hal Needham
You know, you're right. Weather forecasting by nature, there's uncertainty, really forecasting most things, economics, whatever it is, there's usually a lot of uncertainty the farther you get into the future. But it seems like humans by nature, they don't like uncertainty, right? They want to know for my golf tee time Saturday at 9 a.m., will it be raining or not?

00;19;30;08 - 00;19;34;09
Hal Needham
Right. They want yes or no. But the answer really is some probability.

00;19;35;09 - 00;20;02;08
Bill Reid
Yeah, maybe. Maybe it's the right answer. But yeah, I, I mean, we kind of cave into that too. You know, when forecast rainfall amounts, we'll give a range, which in some respect is acknowledging the probabilistic. But boy, we're at we're giving a precision factor that suggests a lot more accuracy. That's really their precision versus accuracy or two different things.

00;20;02;08 - 00;20;09;24
Hal Needham
You mean when we're saying a half inch of rain, it almost sounds like we have this really under wraps. We know what's going to happen, but there might be a lot more uncertainty than that.

00;20;10;21 - 00;20;28;28
Bill Reid
Oh, yeah. Well, I'm thinking more in line in the graph. You say, okay, so more the aerial of a half inch, that's actually not too bad. But when we come up with our graphic, it says like finally drawn lines and stuff where the different amounts of rain I'll be several days out or if we believe that we're kidding ourselves.

00;20;28;28 - 00;20;38;05
Bill Reid
But I think we're I think we're somewhat misleading the people on the other end because it looks real. I mean, it looks very precise and it must be accurate, but it's not.

00;20;38;09 - 00;20;55;06
Hal Needham
There is something about a weather map. I mean, we talk about this. There are hurricanes and then I've heard you use the term model can. Right. When when something is projected, say eight days out in the future, ten days out in the future, it somehow it looks authoritative when it's circulating the Internet because all the ice of our lines are drawn.

00;20;55;06 - 00;21;11;04
Hal Needham
I mean, it looks like someone knew what they're talking about. But those of us that work in the biz, we're like, okay, especially if you get on out beyond, say, 5 to 7 days. There is a ton of uncertainty with that. But it may look certain because you have this map that's depicting all these exact precise features.

00;21;12;06 - 00;21;48;05
Bill Reid
That's right. And the people that understand that all they're you know, and all they interpret that to mean is that the the basic environment that we think is required, again, to develop a tropical cyclone is forecast by the models to exist. Then. But it's highly unlikely that making something from nothing is accurate yet, that that's proven out by the fact we haven't been able to push our tropical weather outlook for development out farther than the five days that we started with back in 2008, because the scale just isn't there.

00;21;48;16 - 00;22;05;06
Hal Needham
So with these longer term model runs, you're saying the proper way to look at that is saying, okay, in general the models are say saying the environmental conditions could support a tropical cyclone in the Gulf next week. But, you know, will it will it actually look the way this map says? Probably not if it's out beyond 5 to 7 days?

00;22;06;16 - 00;22;25;14
Bill Reid
Yeah. What if I got really bored and had nothing better to do? I would spend the whole season documenting the model canes and see what percentage of them actually turned out being a system beyond beyond the week. I would when you get within a week, there's probably something to be said for paying attention to it.

00;22;25;14 - 00;22;43;15
Hal Needham
But yeah, and for our listeners that are tropical weather enthusiast, well on these model runs, if you go to say, tropical tidbits, you can see how many hours in the future this is. And sometimes we'll see these these snapshots circulating around that get out well beyond a week. And, you know, some of these model runs go out beyond even two weeks.

00;22;43;15 - 00;23;03;20
Hal Needham
It's just incredibly unlikely that it's going to actually look like that. So it's always good to just take a deep breath, don't freak out and like build like you're saying, just to realize that there's a general idea there that environment could support this type of a storm. But as we know, as time goes on, a lot of times that storm may not even form.

00;23;03;20 - 00;23;06;17
Hal Needham
And if it does, it may shift quite a bit.

00;23;06;17 - 00;23;06;26
Bill Reid
Yeah.

00;23;07;17 - 00;23;22;08
Hal Needham
Bill, thank you so much for taking time to come on the podcast. Really appreciate it. It's been great to work with you with the National Tropical Weather Conference this year and hopefully the season's done, at least here in the Gulf. And we'll have to see, you know, as we get into talking about eventually next season and beyond.

00;23;23;05 - 00;23;44;05
Bill Reid
Yeah, it looks like for certainly for us in the West Gulf that we're at a westerly dominant pattern, as we should be. By late October. I didn't see anything that's going to change that in the near future. So other than remnants of things like Roslin that's coming across Mexico, that the tropics are going to be someone else's game the rest of the year.

00;23;44;05 - 00;23;55;04
Hal Needham
I always like to think once we hit Galveston October fast or home free, I'm hoping the streak continues. So it seems like there's climatological support for that hum, so hopefully roam free for the season.

00;23;55;04 - 00;23;57;08
Bill Reid
Yeah, until we get that outlier right.

00;23;58;15 - 00;24;00;19
Hal Needham
Bill, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. Appreciate it.

00;24;01;06 - 00;24;02;21
Bill Reid
You bet. Enjoy the rest of your day.

00;24;03;07 - 00;24;28;01
Hal Needham
But our next guest is Jonathan Brazil, meteorologist and hydrologist with the National Weather Service. Jonathan works out of the National Weather Service office in Lake Charles, Louisiana, in the southwestern part of the state. Jonathan was one of the guest on stage at this live session of the National Tropical Weather Conference, whom Bill Reid and I interviewed just minutes after this audio segment was recorded.

00;24;29;19 - 00;24;37;21
Hal Needham
I'm with Jonathan Brazzell a hydrologist, a meteorologist with the National Weather Service in Lake Charles. Jonathan, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast.

00;24;37;24 - 00;24;38;05
Jonathan Brazzell
You're welcome.

00;24;38;19 - 00;24;53;24
Hal Needham
Jonathan, you've been through a ton of hurricanes in south Louisiana over the past decade, and I have to think that that's led to a lot of lessons learned and improved preparedness. What are some of the things you've learned through a lot of these hurricane strikes you've had over the past 8 to 10 years?

00;24;54;10 - 00;25;14;03
Jonathan Brazzell
Well, even before I got to southwest Louisiana, I I'd been watching the hurricane history because I grew up in Louisiana already. So I, I had already been when I found out I was going to move to southwest Louisiana, I had already been thinking in my head, what am I going to look for to reduce my own personal risk?

00;25;15;09 - 00;25;24;01
Jonathan Brazzell
So there's multiple things you have to do to make yourself less vulnerable to a storm event.

00;25;24;12 - 00;25;32;00
Hal Needham
I like that you started off there with your personal risk. A lot of times people want to go from the top down. You almost were thinking from the bottom up. How can you start with yourself?

00;25;32;00 - 00;25;56;11
Jonathan Brazzell
You are your you are your own first responder in a big situation. So you've got to think about you, your family, your friends, your neighbors. You're there first on the scene. So so what I did was every time I'd go to the grocery store, I'd buy non-perishables. And, you know, by the time we actually needed it, I had a lot stacked up ready to go.

00;25;57;16 - 00;25;59;03
Jonathan Brazzell
And then so.

00;25;59;07 - 00;26;04;04
Hal Needham
So like canned food, dry food, nuts, beef jerky, all that kind of stuff, that's not going to spoil, right?

00;26;04;18 - 00;26;31;09
Jonathan Brazzell
And so we were we were also looking around, going back a little bit when we were looking for a whole I was looking for an area that wasn't going to flood. That's either from the rainfall or the storm surge. The house I wanted a big nice house was was in a flood area. So we ditched that idea and it was hard to do.

00;26;31;09 - 00;26;34;05
Jonathan Brazzell
But you go for the areas that are less risky.

00;26;35;02 - 00;26;44;06
Hal Needham
I really like what you're saying there. So there was a house that you really wanted. It was a good deal. It seemed to be what you were looking for, but you were considering the flood risk and that actually led to you not purchasing not.

00;26;44;09 - 00;26;59;05
Jonathan Brazzell
Purchasing that home. But we ended up where we are now and it's kind of elevated off the main road some. So it's an it's in a less risky area as far as the rainfall could surge get it. But it's going to have to be a big storm surge event.

00;26;59;06 - 00;27;07;14
Hal Needham
And you're in sulfur, so you're on the I-10 corridor. Your place is actually just north of I-10, Right. So a surge would actually have to get all the way to I-10. That's a little bit farther.

00;27;07;24 - 00;27;12;14
Jonathan Brazzell
And in Hurricane Ike, it got pretty close.

00;27;12;28 - 00;27;21;05
Hal Needham
I remember driving along the I-10 corridor in the day of Ike, and I couldn't believe seeing storm surge. I mean, that's what, 25 miles inland. That's right. It was incredible.

00;27;21;11 - 00;27;24;24
Jonathan Brazzell
But it's just due to our flat coastline down there. So.

00;27;25;13 - 00;27;43;25
Hal Needham
Yeah. So I can then well, even before Ike, there was Rita. And then after those storms, we have Laura and all these other storms. I mean, what's a storm that stands out to you that maybe did something that was just shocking like that? You know, like hard to believe that it did it? Or were you kind of prepared for all the things that you've seen with hurricanes in that area?

00;27;44;13 - 00;28;03;03
Jonathan Brazzell
Well, as far as the storm surge of Hurricane Ike stands out by far other than Laura. But Laura was such a smaller storm surge event in in the amount of area, even though it was higher, it was a very small area that was impacted.

00;28;03;14 - 00;28;19;25
Hal Needham
Ike was amazing. I mean, we were recording this here in Galveston, Texas. Ike made landfall. The eye came right across the island here in Galveston, but a ton of flooding, not only on the upper Texas coast, but also also in southwest Louisiana. Do you think a lot of people were expecting that amount of storm surge that far from the I?

00;28;20;00 - 00;28;38;10
Jonathan Brazzell
No, I remember talking to an emergency manager that was in I'm sorry, the mayor of Delco, and we were telling him it's going to flood. And he's like, you mean to tell me a Category two going in south of Galveston is going to flood our city? I said, Yes.

00;28;38;10 - 00;28;48;27
Hal Needham
And they did, right? They did. Yes. Yeah, they're very vulnerable. Dell comes right off of Vermilion Bay. They're very low lying. But again, I guess it's the fact that people focus sometimes on the category. Right.

00;28;49;11 - 00;28;56;07
Jonathan Brazzell
So category tracks watching the track shift back and forth will drive you insane, man. Well, let's talk.

00;28;56;07 - 00;29;11;27
Hal Needham
A little bit about that because people want to really look at the latest model run and the shift to the west shift to the east back to the west. You talk often about probabilistic and looking at instead of looking at the best track forecast, looking at a probabilistic forecast, could you explain what that means?

00;29;11;27 - 00;29;47;16
Jonathan Brazzell
Yeah, you got to you got to start thinking probabilistic because it uses ensemble data where it spreads out the the forecast a little more to give you a probability of seeing the chance of that event occurring. I know a lot of people have issues with probability, but we during a hurricane event, the National Weather Service will make that easier on you by producing what we call HPI graphics, which stands for Hurricane Threat and Impacts.

00;29;48;04 - 00;29;57;01
Jonathan Brazzell
So those graphics, based on what we see in the probability data, will tell you what you need to do to prepare for that event.

00;29;57;03 - 00;30;05;26
Hal Needham
So that's broken down as far as I understand. The HD maps are broken down by impact and there's also a tie action to that where maybe people need to evacuate and that kind of thing.

00;30;05;26 - 00;30;16;15
Jonathan Brazzell
That's right. So it it it does Hurricane winds threat. You got the storm surge threat, the rainfall threat and then the tornado threat.

00;30;16;15 - 00;30;33;17
Hal Needham
Jonathan, I just got back from Florida where Hurricane Ian unfortunately killed over a hundred people. A lot of people were flat footed and people seem to be confused with you know, for example, we talk about the cone of uncertainty and there were people outside the cone that said we had no concept that buildings would be washed away and this kind of thing.

00;30;33;22 - 00;30;44;08
Hal Needham
How can focused on, say, impact mapping or probabilistic flooding data maybe maybe help people as opposed to just looking for looking at the cone and where the eye may track?

00;30;44;12 - 00;31;12;17
Jonathan Brazzell
Yeah, so as you and I spoke about before, when the hurricane when Hurricane Eden was south of Cuba, the probabilistic data for the storm surge guidance was already through the roof and Fort Myers area. Yes, it was spread out all the way up to north of Tampa. But as with each advisory cycle, it stayed very steady in Fort Myers, which tells me that that area's under hot.

00;31;12;17 - 00;31;25;09
Jonathan Brazzell
It has a high risk already. And so the probabilities weren't waffling that much. And then, you know, a day or two before landfall, the probabilities just went through the roof that something bad was good.

00;31;25;10 - 00;31;41;22
Hal Needham
So sometimes people are focusing on the quote unquote best track. That's cone of where the eye may go. And so they're they're thinking, oh, the risk is lower. Now the risk is higher. You're saying if you just stick with probabilistic, it's shifting around a lot less and you have a better idea of it's really what's your probability of getting flooded over a certain level, Right.

00;31;41;22 - 00;32;01;03
Jonathan Brazzell
Absolutely. And so what we'll do is we'll do the path of least regret. So if you take the actions that we we provide guidance for in those impact graphics, you will you'll be okay. The home may not, but but you and your family will, right.

00;32;01;03 - 00;32;21;13
Hal Needham
You're doing your best to help people understand what their risk is and how they need to get out of harm's way and that kind of thing. How do you think that people can better prepare moving forward? I mean, when you talk to people, I know you do a lot of engagement and outreach. How can people take actions to help themselves, not be blindsided from flooding, wind damage, these different things, especially with hurricanes?

00;32;21;20 - 00;33;02;07
Jonathan Brazzell
All right. Like we we start out with no, your personal risk. So for for rainfall, flooding, you know, there's a lot of information out there with the FEMA flood insurance rate maps. You know, some of them are kind of outdated, but FEMA Region six is actually making newer, better maps and it covers the entire area. So if you live in the FEMA region, six area, you got really good data that you can make an assessment of What is your risk from 100 year, 500 year rainfall.

00;33;02;07 - 00;33;07;09
Hal Needham
And those are detailed maps, right? So you can look in and see your area very detailed.

00;33;07;19 - 00;33;17;20
Jonathan Brazzell
So it's on the inform side i f r m and so that's a good place to start for looking at your rainfall flood risk. John.

00;33;18;00 - 00;33;20;25
Hal Needham
Jonathan, where does FEMA Region six cover geographically?

00;33;20;25 - 00;33;28;12
Jonathan Brazzell
It covers Mississippi, I'm sorry, Texas in Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma and Mexico.

00;33;28;15 - 00;33;32;13
Hal Needham
I got you. So a lot of the Western golf right there, you could get a detailed map of your flood risk.

00;33;32;18 - 00;33;58;00
Jonathan Brazzell
That's right. For rainfall. Flooding now for storm surge flooding. The National Hurricane Center has done pre pre mapping. But again, it's based on category and it's but it gives you an idea of what could happen to your area. So that's another good place to go. Look for flooding information.

00;33;58;00 - 00;34;05;24
Hal Needham
Who is that with? Like the slosh mapping mapping and this gets into like the moms and the hours and that maximum envelope of water kind of thing, right?

00;34;05;25 - 00;34;20;08
Jonathan Brazzell
Yes. But the National Hurricane Centers website has just the the moms attached together, which is the maximum with the maximums attached together all along the Atlantic and Gulf Coast.

00;34;20;08 - 00;34;36;15
Hal Needham
Yeah, that's a really good suggestion that people can start look at their neighborhood. I love the fact that you were saying, you know, this for you even was personal to the level of informing your real estate choices. That's friend. I think that, you know, when I moved to Galveston, I showed up in February. It was 71 degrees. Beautiful day.

00;34;36;28 - 00;34;54;08
Hal Needham
I was thinking, I do not want to live on low ground and be flood prone. And I think that especially Gulf Coast, we get so much beautiful weather. You can let your guard down and say, oh, there won't be a hurricane in my neighborhood, there won't be a flood in my neighborhood. But I think if we use those, if we think about our personal choices and say, how can I be less risky?

00;34;54;08 - 00;34;59;06
Hal Needham
How can I live in higher elevation or elevated house, I think that could really probably help people.

00;34;59;06 - 00;35;23;29
Jonathan Brazzell
Yeah. And then and then the last thing is for wind risk. No, no. Your construction type of your house is, you know, what do you live here? You know, there are structures that are more risky than others, like, for instance, mobile homes. Those are the first things to go. How you know, how many trees are around your house.

00;35;23;29 - 00;35;38;14
Jonathan Brazzell
That's another one. And also garages, depending on which way the wind blows in the hurricane, garages can become an opening for the hurricane that allows it to get in and lift your roof off. So.

00;35;38;27 - 00;35;53;13
Hal Needham
Right. So kind of understanding your construction, understanding your house, what it's made of, the orientation of it, where the winds are coming. That's right. How do you see people getting blindsided sometimes where they're they're flat footed, They're not prepared. They're they're caught off guard. What leads to that?

00;35;55;06 - 00;36;03;06
Jonathan Brazzell
Again, it's probably looking at the forecast track without looking at the overall impacts of each individual impact.

00;36;03;17 - 00;36;18;10
Hal Needham
So let's talk about that, because I've noticed that a lot of people think if the eye goes over your location, you've taken a direct hit. If the eye does knock over your location, people think that it missed. Right. In reality, when we actually get on the ground, how is it different than that perception?

00;36;19;02 - 00;36;39;12
Jonathan Brazzell
So actually everything east of the eye for four miles is going to be heavily impacted, especially a Cat three or higher. So I mean, for over 100 miles in some cases, especially storm surge flooding that extends well away from the the center of the storm.

00;36;39;16 - 00;36;45;10
Hal Needham
So I hear you saying these impacts extend over a huge area. They're not sometimes people think of hurricanes as a sweep.

00;36;45;12 - 00;36;57;08
Jonathan Brazzell
Yeah, not a single point. Yeah. So that same goes for the wind to the wind field. You know, it can be a very small wind fuel, but it also can extend outward hundreds of miles.

00;36;57;16 - 00;37;12;05
Hal Needham
Have you seen in the past where people think, okay, a storm is going into the upper Texas coast to Louisiana is going to be fine. Do you do people sometimes or have they had enough experience? Because like with Ike, a Texas storm could do a lot of damage in Louisiana.

00;37;12;10 - 00;37;39;04
Jonathan Brazzell
That's right. So, um, yeah, it just depends on who you're talking to. A lot of people now take it very seriously because we've been ever since 2008. Well, yeah, ever since Rita. And then I can almost hit everybody has taken them seriously and after long it's going to be like you say, go. They go.

00;37;41;00 - 00;38;00;13
Hal Needham
I also recorded an interview with Brian and Lisa Flanagan. Brian is a weather enthusiast who has been passionate about the science of meteorology since he was a kid. He has an interesting perspective because he works in the energy industry. I'm grateful to have someone with his knowledge of weather and climate working in that industry here in southeast Texas.

00;38;00;25 - 00;38;26;16
Hal Needham
He's been participating in the National Tropical Weather Conference for around six or seven years now. His wife, Lisa, joined us in the podcast conversation. Her perspective was really interesting as well because she's a quote unquote, normal person who's not a weather or climate enthusiast. Interacting with such people certainly helps us improve our communication weather risk to everybody. We're here at the National Tropical Weather Conference in Galveston, Texas.

00;38;26;16 - 00;38;45;11
Hal Needham
I'm with Brian and Lisa. Brian, you're a weather fanatic. Lisa, you're kind of along for the ride. We're talking a lot about hurricane preparedness and the challenges in communicating hurricane risk, whether it's wind rainfall, flooding or storm surge flooding. What are some things you got from our session today? And what are some thoughts that you have about the challenges of communicating hurricane risk?

00;38;46;20 - 00;39;09;11
Speaker 4
Well, being married to him for 25 years, I hear about the weather all the time, but I don't really look at the weather. And I hear you guys talking about the the I can't think of the word the challenges of reaching people like me who I don't watch the news. I don't I mean, there's got to be a better way to, like, get people going.

00;39;09;11 - 00;39;10;08
Speaker 4
I'm at risk.

00;39;10;21 - 00;39;17;20
Hal Needham
So, Lisa, if you were at risk, you're probably deferring to. Brian, Right. Absolutely loves extreme weather and meteorology, right?

00;39;17;21 - 00;39;19;29
Speaker 4
Absolutely. Absolutely. But not everybody has a.

00;39;19;29 - 00;39;24;25
Hal Needham
Brian Right. So what would you do if you didn't have a Brian Where would you get your information from screwed.

00;39;26;10 - 00;39;30;08
Speaker 4
I mean literally because I don't I'm not from this area at all.

00;39;30;12 - 00;39;35;26
Hal Needham
You're from Wyoming originally, right right. And so I think it's been a while since the hurricane hit Wyoming, isn't it?

00;39;36;07 - 00;39;57;09
Speaker 4
Absolutely. It's been a big disaster. But yeah, it's I mean, I listen to him, but for 25 years after some point, you just start. It's just noise. And so I don't really and I it's is a very I was I was very interested today in listening to y'all. I came down here for him but I was like, wow, this is kind of cool.

00;39;57;09 - 00;40;00;17
Speaker 4
But it's it's very I don't know what I would do.

00;40;00;26 - 00;40;06;28
Hal Needham
But before we go to Brian, a quick question, another question for you. So how long have you both lived here in southeast Texas?

00;40;07;10 - 00;40;08;10
Speaker 4
He was born and raised here.

00;40;08;11 - 00;40;09;12
Hal Needham
You're born and raised here. What about.

00;40;09;12 - 00;40;11;17
Speaker 4
You? Listen, I've been here since 91.

00;40;11;17 - 00;40;32;13
Hal Needham
So you've seen a lot of hurricanes. And I'll have you mentioned sometimes it can just be noise. Did it change after a storm like Harvey or other ones where you're seeing like big flooding? Did it go to be like, okay, wait, this really is applied information that's important? Or was it again, just I know everyone has a busy life, so sometimes it's like some people aren't really thinking about the weather on a daily basis.

00;40;32;13 - 00;40;58;12
Speaker 4
I think because every storm that we've had, be it Rita, Harvey, Ike, we really we weren't personally impacted. We had I mean, we live in an area where for whatever reason, keeps getting kind of bypassed. And so you become very complacent in it. And I mean, you know, like we have all the panels to put up on our house, which are an absolute pain in the butt to put up.

00;40;58;14 - 00;41;11;00
Speaker 4
Right. You know, and we're not young people anymore. So it's like, yeah, it's it's an interesting thing because it hasn't personally impacted us. We've never been flooded. We've never lost even probably a shingle.

00;41;11;08 - 00;41;13;24
Hal Needham
You're saying it can be easier to be more complacent if it has?

00;41;13;25 - 00;41;21;21
Speaker 4
Absolutely. And and so I think the more people that are unaffected, the more complacency you get. Yeah. You know, and so.

00;41;21;22 - 00;41;35;19
Hal Needham
For sure, Right. Brian, you're a major weather enthusiast. You've been part of the National Tropical Weather Conference for a long time. I mean, what are some of the lessons you've learned over the years on just being better prepared and understanding your your hurricane and extreme weather risks? I think just.

00;41;35;19 - 00;41;36;04
Bill Reid
You.

00;41;36;07 - 00;41;40;24
Hal Needham
You really need to listen to what's being said out there from the National Weather Service. You need.

00;41;40;24 - 00;41;41;25
Bill Reid
To listen to a valid.

00;41;41;25 - 00;42;02;05
Hal Needham
Source and you have to focus on yourself and your family to be prepared for the worst. And in case that occurs. But again, a lot of people get complacent if they're not directly affected. You know, one thing that was talked about today that I think is a huge plus that people are seeing now are the cameras that are out there that show the true surge.

00;42;02;13 - 00;42;13;24
Hal Needham
And people now are getting a chance to see how bad is back. And that's what they need to see and need to take that and say, what can I do to prepare my family in my house.

00;42;14;01 - 00;42;15;04
Speaker 4
Every Friday for.

00;42;15;04 - 00;42;36;22
Hal Needham
Neighbors and help warn other people and get the word out there and spread it, you know, from the National Weather Service to your friends and family. It was amazing seeing these live cameras from Hurricane Ian. And it almost looked like the ocean had moved in to parts of Fort Myers Beach. I mean, this wasn't just still water. This had massive waves and it was washing away buildings.

00;42;37;00 - 00;42;40;29
Hal Needham
Maybe people seeing it could be like, okay, this really could be catastrophic. Exactly.

00;42;40;29 - 00;42;41;28
Bill Reid
And even myself.

00;42;41;28 - 00;43;06;22
Hal Needham
Watching that and seeing that, it just made me think even more, you know, even me, sometimes I get complacent and seeing stuff like that helps, you know, bring it back because I've always lived inland and not been affected by any surge. That's not been a concern. Growing up imperial in Texas, which far inland, But even I need to see that from time to time.

00;43;06;22 - 00;43;33;02
Hal Needham
So I can pass that information along and don't become complacent from surge, which again is never affected me personally. Bryan, you mentioned getting weather information from a credible source right back in the day. There used to be maybe like three sources, right? You had maybe a couple of news channels on on the evening news. Now with social media, their source, there's weather information coming from everywhere, from from your friends Facebook page to an app to all these different things.

00;43;33;13 - 00;44;02;02
Hal Needham
How do you really know what a credible source is? And then I know, like Lisa mentioned, she doesn't watch the news. So, I mean, what would you what advice would you give to someone to get a credible source for accurate weather information? Right. When it comes to that, at this point, make sure to source as a National Weather Service, National Severe Storm Prediction Center, National Hurricane Center, make sure it's those sources, not someone that has some group out there that's just posting one mile run, say in a massive hurricane's going to hit and it's showing 300 hours out.

00;44;02;10 - 00;44;08;11
Hal Needham
We see all that all the time. Make sure it comes from the National Weather Service, from the National Storm Prediction Center.

00;44;08;11 - 00;44;11;26
Jonathan Brazzell
Our National Hurricane Center. How are your local news stations?

00;44;12;00 - 00;44;26;25
Hal Needham
And it's got to be teamwork for everyone. I love that advice. And I've even on social media, there are a couple of people that often we'll be showing the graphics from the hurricane center, showing the graphics from the weather service, but other people are just showing I don't even know where these graphics came from or it's not as credible information.

00;44;26;25 - 00;44;31;07
Hal Needham
Exactly. And there are some credible groups out there that support and show the models and stuff.

00;44;31;19 - 00;44;33;02
Bill Reid
But people like.

00;44;33;02 - 00;44;34;22
Hal Needham
Lisa, for instance, who's not in tune.

00;44;34;22 - 00;44;35;06
Bill Reid
With the weather.

00;44;35;06 - 00;44;52;01
Hal Needham
Like we are, they're not going to know. And that's just going to cause panic and false information. And that's the biggest challenge I think that we all have to to get that correct information out there. To everyone I say both by sharing it and maybe directing people to those or exactly directing.

00;44;52;01 - 00;44;52;13
Bill Reid
People to.

00;44;52;13 - 00;45;21;19
Hal Needham
Those sources all feel a little better after going through the session today. These types of information exchanges and discussions is a definite help. You feel a little better prepared? Oh yeah, definitely. It helps. That's literally and the key is to keep that concern or not concerned, but keep that, you know, information flowing through the year because, you know, here we are in the hurricane season when it comes along, you know, people get complacent, it comes back around.

00;45;21;19 - 00;45;26;02
Hal Needham
And I think we just need to get keep that same information flowing. You know.

00;45;26;03 - 00;45;27;05
Jonathan Brazzell
Hear about April and.

00;45;27;05 - 00;45;27;26
Hal Needham
May, June.

00;45;28;11 - 00;45;31;04
Bill Reid
But yeah, as long as as long as we keep.

00;45;31;04 - 00;45;42;10
Hal Needham
That information, valid information flowing to let people know we live in an area where hurricanes are a threat and we must be prepared, You know, and just because it's winter time doesn't mean you shouldn't in the back of your mind, you know, have.

00;45;42;10 - 00;45;42;24
Bill Reid
A plan.

00;45;42;24 - 00;46;01;10
Hal Needham
Down. The road. Sure. It sounds like getting out ahead of these storms and being prepared instead of waiting until they're on our doorstep. Exactly. Absolutely right. And Lisa, thanks so much for taking time to come on the podcast. We're looking forward to hanging out this evening and and and and beyond this, a conference with you guys. Absolutely. I appreciate you so much.

00;46;01;14 - 00;46;34;24
Hal Needham
Appreciate it. While a lot of great insights from our guest in this episode, here are a few of the perspectives that really stood out to me. I love Bill Reed's emphasis that a hurricane does not just strike a point, but inflicts geographically widespread hazards along the coastline and inland. He mentioned about how a large hurricane like Hurricane Ike from 2008 could make landfall along the upper Texas coast and create a storm surge that floods the coastline all the way to the Florida Panhandle, hundreds of miles to the east.

00;46;34;25 - 00;47;03;22
Hal Needham
So that would include the coastline of not only Texas, but Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, all the way to the Florida Panhandle. That's hundreds of miles of coastline that's flooded, not just the point near where the eye makes landfall. So people often think of hurricane hazards as points instead of large areas. This may be in part a function of how we create maps to display the risk maps like the cone of uncertainty or even the hurricane symbol with a straight line track that is shown on many of the news networks.

00;47;04;10 - 00;47;27;02
Hal Needham
Get viewers attention on where the eye is forecast to go. Instead of drawing attention to the huge area of coastline, vulnerable to flood and wind hazards. Jonathan, Brazil had a lot of really profound impacts on this episode as well. What keeps coming back to me, though, is his personal choice that he made to not buy a home that he wanted because he felt that it had too much flood risk.

00;47;27;15 - 00;48;07;04
Hal Needham
He allowed his knowledge of science to inform a personal decision and then took action to buy a less or less risky home. This level of personal responsibility is very admirable, and in the end he can sleep better at night when a big storm threatens because he lives in a less risky area. Now, what stands out to me from the conversation I had with Brian is the importance of getting your weather information from a credible source like the National Weather Service, National Hurricane Center, or a credible broadcast meteorologist who aligns their forecasts closely with the official government official government forecast With the rise of social media graphics circulate the Internet at lightning speed, and we need

00;48;07;04 - 00;48;30;00
Hal Needham
to make sure the information we're looking at is credible and accurate. A big thank you to our listeners for the great engagement over the past several months as we've really dug in deep to hurricane season, hurricane risks even traveling over to Hurricane Ian in Florida. We're going to continue next week with an episode that looks back at the ten year anniversary of Hurricane Sandy or I should say, Superstorm Sandy.

00;48;30;00 - 00;49;00;27
Hal Needham
There in New Jersey, New York, and along the mid-Atlantic coast and share insights from the National Waterways Conference the week after that as we look a little bit more at inland flood risk. Don't worry for our listeners that are itching to get into the change of season, maybe get away from hurricanes and get away from flooding. We do have some interesting and adventurous episodes plan for really the change of season, getting into fall and winter without giving away too much, I'll just say we're planning to record some episodes live in the Northeastern states later this autumn.

00;49;01;02 - 00;49;25;02
Hal Needham
That'll include some seasonally relevant stories from the Northeast. As we think more about the cooler weather and the approach eventually of winter coming our way. A special thanks, as always, to our production and marketing team, including Steph Baker, Ashley Anderson, Jeremiah Long, Christopher Cook and Amy Wilkins. I'm on Dr. Howell and I'll catch you on the next episode of the Geo Track podcast.

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