Hank Hodde, Sustainability and Resiliency Coordinator for Pinellas County, Florida, shares insights about how to make disaster-prone communities more resilient.

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Transcript:

00;00;00;01 - 00;00;02;07
Hal Needham
Coming up next on the GeoTrek podcast.

00;00;02;20 - 00;00;17;25
Hank Hodde
It's not just doubling. You have insurers vacating the geography. Like we're not even we're not even riding there anymore. And that needs to be told a little bit more. It's like our risk is too high. Yeah, they're pulling out for their book of business. It's crazy.

00;00;17;25 - 00;00;21;11
Hal Needham
They're just completely pulling out of whole areas right? They're like, Oh, yeah, right there anymore?

00;00;21;16 - 00;00;32;27
Hank Hodde
Yeah. So, I mean, my it's really hard to state as, like, a goal and a mission, but I want to mitigate so. Well and be so resilient that we get insurers to come back to this market.

00;00;34;00 - 00;01;01;07
Hal Needham
In the extreme weather and disaster sector, we often use the word sustainability and resiliency. These words paint a picture of enduring whatever comes our way and overcoming hardship, which is the goal of many of our disaster prone communities. Hey, everyone. I'm Dr. Howell, host of the GEO Trek podcast. Episode 45 will focus front and center on the concepts of sustainability and resiliency as we interview Hank Hardy, Sustainability and Resiliency Coordinator for Pinellas County, Florida.

00;01;01;25 - 00;01;22;09
Hal Needham
Pinellas County is along the Florida Gulf Coast. It's in the metro Tampa St Petersburg area and includes the cities of Saint Petersburg and Clearwater, Florida. It's the seventh most populated county in the state of Florida. You're going to love these episodes if you're looking for ways to help your family or your community better prepare for extreme weather hazards or other disasters.

00;01;22;23 - 00;01;44;21
Hal Needham
Hey, if you're new to the podcast, a little bit about go track. We travel the world to find stories about the relationship between people and nature. Our stories investigate the impact of extreme weather, disasters and hazards on individuals and communities. Our goal is to help you better understand how the world works so you can take actions to make yourself, your family and your community more resilient from all the extremes Mother Nature can throw at us.

00;01;45;06 - 00;02;04;17
Hal Needham
Before we get into this episode, we have a favor to ask of you we'd really appreciate if you would subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcast platform. Your subscription helps us mark progress, which enables us to make more professional partnerships moving forward and ensures many more episodes of the GeoTrek podcast in the future. Something I love about Hank Hodde.

00;02;04;17 - 00;02;35;13
Hal Needham
He likes to get down by the water, so pull up a chair in our virtual marina. Let's talk about sustainability and resiliency as we watch the boats come and go. I wanted to provide a more formal introduction to this week's guest. Hank Hodde. Is the Sustainability and Resiliency coordinator for Pinellas County, Florida, where he oversees a new planning and program initiative aimed at reducing negative impacts on local communities and the environment, while also promoting long term sustainability and resiliency of the county's resources and residents.

00;02;35;27 - 00;03;04;08
Hal Needham
He's a certified floodplain manager, envisions specialist licensed insurance adjuster and fortified wise associate with extensive experience in community resilient Coastal Resource Management and climate change adaptation on the federal, state and local levels. He holds a masters of Science in Environmental Management from the University of Houston, Clearlake, and a Bachelor of Science in Residential Sciences from Florida State University.

00;03;04;20 - 00;03;07;06
Hal Needham
Hank, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

00;03;07;18 - 00;03;09;06
Hank Hodde
Of course, I'm happy to be here. How.

00;03;09;19 - 00;03;26;01
Hal Needham
Hank, You stand out to me as someone that has really, you know, a lot of experience working with disasters and sustainability, resiliency. How did you become interested in these topics? I mean, is this something you can trace back to your childhood? Did you go through major storms or, you know, when you look back, how did your interest in these topics begin?

00;03;27;07 - 00;03;51;04
Hank Hodde
Yeah, so it's all of that. But I had one specific moment that really I think so solidified and catalyzed my actions to do it professionally. I grew up on the east coast of Florida and surfing and fishing and was lucky enough to be included in like some environmental studies and fieldwork. Going back to elementary school. We grew up recycling.

00;03;51;04 - 00;04;10;27
Hank Hodde
We were I mean, we cared about the environment and try to keep our place clean and have a high quality of life. Now, I was just a part of it like I was growing up. I didn't know what was necessarily what efforts and initiatives were happening. And the I guess, commitment that it took from citizens to really have a special place.

00;04;12;01 - 00;04;39;26
Hank Hodde
So I grew up in that environment. I learned some things in undergraduate school about sustainable City, didn't know I was going to go into that field. And then after school, I spent two months in Costa Rica and just to, you know, do something after school and just a visit somewhere. And I noticed how the citizens there were living off the land.

00;04;40;12 - 00;05;04;07
Hank Hodde
And I'll never forget the farmers, ranchers out there would grow trees and for their fence line. And once that tree got into a certain caliper or diameter, they would cut it off at an appropriate height and then put in the wires. There's no Lowe's, there's no Home Depot, there's no lumber store, you know, or that there wasn't a plethora of fence installation companies.

00;05;04;07 - 00;05;09;08
Hank Hodde
I mean, they literally grew a tree, which is probably stronger than a fence post of concrete.

00;05;10;02 - 00;05;12;04
Hal Needham
Right? It has roots right in there in the soil, right?

00;05;12;07 - 00;05;37;27
Hank Hodde
Yeah. You know, and that takes years and time. And you have to you know, you have to be patient and work with the nature. I'm like, all right, this is special. And then the recession hit, the Great Recession and Hurricane Ike also hit. And I had a friend in Houston, Clearlake, Texas, and he said, hey, there's a lot of work out here.

00;05;39;01 - 00;06;17;10
Hank Hodde
You know, unfortunately, because, you know, that big storm hit and, you know, devastated that coast coastline. And I got into insurance restoration, contracting and construction, and that's when I got an insight to, you know, post-disaster damage assessments to insurance, to the flow of money from the federal, state and locals, and then the role of private with insurance and banks and then the impacts to homeowners and kind of their, I guess, misguided ness and unfamiliarity with the process and navigating it and the emotions.

00;06;17;10 - 00;06;39;28
Hank Hodde
And so that took me into graduate school to really study all of that in a finer detail. And, you know, I did my thesis on FEMA's post-disaster damage assessment process and then I went and worked for Noah after that, fortunately, in Washington, D.C., and that brought me back down to the Gulf. And so I got more than 50,000 views for courses on management and resilience.

00;06;39;28 - 00;06;42;01
Hank Hodde
And now I'm here.

00;06;42;21 - 00;07;00;17
Hal Needham
Yeah, that's amazing. So it sounds like maybe post Ike, when you were in Clearlake, Texas, that was like a lot of it seemed like you had this interest in sustainability and understanding environments and ecosystems. But then maybe post Ike, you're starting to get into more disaster work there. And then it sounds like that continued with FEMA, right?

00;07;00;27 - 00;07;23;03
Hank Hodde
Yeah, that that was the shocking moment. And that's when I realized really the impacts to communities for such a devastating storm. Growing up, my my dad was a contractor and work Hurricane Andrew and I saw videos that he would bring back of like leaves imprinted in drywall and like, you know, I'm just a kid. I'm like, well, that's crazy, you know?

00;07;23;03 - 00;07;36;22
Hank Hodde
But I didn't realize how humans were impacted. And but then I saw it firsthand for for two years after Ike. And then I made that decision to go that professional route.

00;07;37;09 - 00;07;53;24
Hal Needham
Yeah, that's amazing. And also, I think you're from near Stuart, Florida, right near Jupiter. Is that right? So you guys got some big impacts as well in 2004, right, from Hurricanes Frances and Jeanne. I mean, did that affect your family at all or did that feel different to you personally because it was hitting in your backyard?

00;07;53;29 - 00;08;21;01
Hank Hodde
Yeah, that's that's accurate. So we got two storms within two weeks and the eyes were within two miles of each other. And me and and my friends were we were going we're an undergraduate school. Florida State. And I'm glad you brought this up. You know, we we drove home, you know, we loaded up everything that we could in northern Florida knowing that supplies would be low in that region.

00;08;21;01 - 00;08;43;07
Hank Hodde
And, you know, we got water and, you know, things of gas and a chainsaw and food and supplies. I mean, we just knew naturally what to load up on because we grew up in that lifestyle in Florida. And we drove down there and we went and helped. We, you know, as much as we could. And as long as we could with that missing class and we'd go back up to Tallahassee.

00;08;43;07 - 00;09;10;24
Hank Hodde
Then it hit hits again and we saw our friends and and family members, you know, get their blue tarps ripped off from another storm or more extensive water damage. And we couldn't do anything about it, really, because we had to go back to school. We kind of stay, you know, and that was an emotional moment as well. But it was an opportunity to, you know, get into action and try to do what we could.

00;09;10;24 - 00;09;29;25
Hal Needham
Yeah, that's it's hard to see people suffering, especially loved ones or your community when you're at a distance and there's nothing you could do or you feel powerless. But, you know, props to you for loading up as a college student and driving home full of supplies. I mean, that's exactly I would imagine in that moment there's almost nothing else you can do.

00;09;30;01 - 00;09;39;20
Hal Needham
You're like, I have to go and help, right? I know you have a big heart to serve others. And I could totally see you going back saying, Hey, I have three or four days. Let's let's do what we can kind of thing.

00;09;40;01 - 00;10;02;08
Hank Hodde
Yeah, totally. I mean, you know, and I did it, you know, with a group of friends who we all grew up together and we're like, we all need to, you know, go home collectively and do this. And yeah, it's just a moment of opportunity and, you know, everything that was happening in our space we just dropped because, you know, we knew that there was a bigger need somewhere else.

00;10;02;16 - 00;10;20;16
Hal Needham
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And there's something about actually getting on the ground, you know, you begin to see practically what people need. And that relates a little bit into the position you're working in right now. I mean, could you explain a little bit as far as your position as sustainability and resiliency coordinator for Pinellas County, a very populated county?

00;10;20;27 - 00;10;30;02
Hal Needham
I mean, how do these lessons that you've learned in the past, how does that relate to your current job? Maybe you can explain some of the projects you're working on and and your perspectives on that.

00;10;31;01 - 00;11;00;10
Hank Hodde
Yeah. So, you know, I'll start with the fact that the the new government role of having a chief resilience officer has really become a little more popular in the past. I don't know, 6 to 8 years. And it started with the 100 Rockefeller or the Rockefeller Foundation's 100 Resilient City Initiative to fund chief resilience officers. And in different you know, more large scale governments, municipalities.

00;11;00;10 - 00;11;32;25
Hank Hodde
And so I think that caught interest within the government space. And, you know, there's all these little individual parts happening in local government that are tied to the topics. But, you know, those efforts are, you know, moving forward in a collaborative space or an organized framework. And so that was identified in Pinellas County. We were doing a lot of great things, but perhaps there should be, you know, someone who has a better handle on what's happening in different departments, who can help organize it, who can, you know, provide a framework moving forward.

00;11;33;05 - 00;12;13;29
Hank Hodde
So I saw this opportunity and I applied and was fortunate to get it, and it was the first of position for this work. So now that I'm in here, I work in the kind of county administrator's office, which is like a mayoral office work under the county commission. And I have viewpoint across all the departments. It's not a, you know, you know, a role of authority, but a role of of collaboration and making linkages and synergies and connecting efforts and, you know, people and being a partner, being a custodian of work.

00;12;13;29 - 00;12;48;02
Hank Hodde
And so that's the the general gist of my position. But right now, my my biggest priority is to create a sustainability and resiliency action plan for the county that will kind of catalyze our efforts and Momentum's moving forward and have more institutional type drivers to keep us organized and on point and instill new best practices. Either, you know, it could be a project or it could be a performance measure or, you know, an expenditure of, you know, our budget.

00;12;48;12 - 00;13;11;12
Hank Hodde
And I'm seven weeks out from having that plan completed. It's been a two year effort and we're then we're going to get into implementation. And so we're going to do this stuff internally as an organization with the you know, with the knowledge that we're going to hopefully have a positive impact on the community as well.

00;13;12;02 - 00;13;36;19
Hal Needham
Yeah, Hank, that's amazing. Those types of comprehensive plans or in this case, a sustainability resiliency action plan, those are really extensive. You have to bring together people from all these different backgrounds. That's a huge undertaking that's really encouraging that you're so far along. It seems like the finish line is in sight. What what proportion of that is related to just, you know, ongoing month in, month out issues of sustainability and resiliency?

00;13;36;19 - 00;13;40;12
Hal Needham
And then what proportion of that relates to like if there was a natural disaster?

00;13;40;27 - 00;14;12;06
Hank Hodde
Yeah. So moving into this, we had a baseline assessment or inventory of our, of our activities and it could been on policy or project or, you know, a program. And so that really set up the framework of the plan and priorities based on what we were already doing. And what we did was, you know, add things on top of it so we can build upon momentum of existing best practices.

00;14;12;06 - 00;14;49;26
Hank Hodde
And what we added were things that you know, we saw within the industry itself or what other local municipalities are doing so that we can have some type of coordinated work as a region and so that that was our, you know, take on the portfolio where I could say that, you know, my elevator speech on that. But what we also did was we surveyed the community and we distributed a countywide survey, even though we're just on it, you know, So manage unincorporated Pinellas, you know, but we're seen as a leader in this space.

00;14;49;26 - 00;15;01;29
Hank Hodde
We got 1300 voluntary responses. And that really told us what people think about climate change disasters. Are we prepared? Are we not? Do they know what we're doing? Do they not know what we're doing?

00;15;02;00 - 00;15;24;11
Hal Needham
Hank, with your extensive experience working with all these different organizations over the years, could you guys give us an example of when people were very resilient and had the foresight to prepare? It could be individuals as an organization, a community, you know, possibly an example of really great resiliency, and then maybe an example where people were not prepared and got blindsided.

00;15;24;20 - 00;15;27;04
Hal Needham
Could you possibly share maybe one example of each?

00;15;27;25 - 00;16;02;21
Hank Hodde
Yeah, I'll start with the latter. So I think Hurricane Michael, you know, hitting the Florida Panhandle, Mexico Beach, Panama City, I think that was blindsiding moment because that they hadn't been impacted to that an event like that forever. I don't know why. I don't know the history or you do. But the other thing, too, wasn't just a hurricane, but it escalated in 72 hours to four, almost a five.

00;16;03;04 - 00;16;28;27
Hank Hodde
And you know, on top of my experience that I provided before, I also in my previous job and moonlighted as an insurance adjuster. So I got my license for that. And I was spending my weekends. I lived in Mobile, Alabama, driving over there to to do insurance claims. There's and there's two sides of that. Yeah. You know, I'm like, well trying to pay off my student loans and things like that.

00;16;28;27 - 00;16;50;10
Hank Hodde
But, you know, I was helping people on the ground and I got to see that those moments of emotion and and just confusion like what I saw with Hurricane Ike. So I don't want to say they're not resilient. I think they're blindsided. And, you know, the people who were there rallied. You know, they stayed. They didn't move away.

00;16;50;10 - 00;17;44;25
Hank Hodde
They grew up there. They're like, all right, we're going to be hurricane strong, Right? Or Mexico beat strong. So they're rallying. Yeah, I think some of the most resilient people in the space that I see live in tropical islands, 100%. And Bermuda, Bahamas, Caribbean, I mean, they get walloped all the time. And we may not see the stories, but, you know, like on the news, but they just get up and rebuild and and we've come to learn from them that like, for instance, concrete works, you know, concrete blocks work for a home, you know, and you need to have it needs to be made of material that can be, you know, water resistant, for instance,

00;17;44;28 - 00;17;48;09
Hank Hodde
and get back. Right. You know, you mop it up, get right back in and you got a roof.

00;17;48;18 - 00;18;07;01
Hal Needham
Hank, I've heard this again and again about the Caribbean, like Hurricane Dorian just parked over the Bahamas. A five people. I know that when and afterwards they said you cannot believe how well they actually did, considering what happened. You know, just again, building out of concrete building resiliently, I mean, it seems to be this is a common theme I've heard.

00;18;07;01 - 00;18;14;00
Hal Needham
And I'm glad that you brought this up. I mean, what do you think we can learn from these Caribbean islands that bounce back unbelievably quickly?

00;18;14;14 - 00;18;33;13
Hank Hodde
I think the simplicity of their building stock is is one thing. And, you know, they have their moments of peril and grief. I mean, you know, there's a lot of loss of life out there. There's loss of communities. I mean, with Dorian and the Abaco Islands, I mean, they don't have a grocery store. I mean, they lost loved ones.

00;18;35;09 - 00;18;54;05
Hank Hodde
But I think something really to take away when we talk about resiliency, that it's not always infrastructure, it's people and the mental and emotional fortitude that you have to consistently deal with this and have it be part of your life is it's something to learn from, for sure.

00;18;54;22 - 00;19;17;08
Hal Needham
Yeah, and that's true. The Caribbean islands get hit so frequently. There's something to be said about consistently going through trials, right? If you're a whatever, a football team and you're just playing, I mean, look at like, you know, the SEC, like these big football schools. But every week they're playing a top team, right? So they're just they're pushed to this level compared to maybe other parts of the country where you're like, you don't see that level, you know?

00;19;17;08 - 00;19;19;10
Hal Needham
So I don't know if that's a good example or not, but.

00;19;19;22 - 00;19;42;17
Hank Hodde
I used sports analogies a lot because it's easy. But I also watch sports and some people don't. But, you know, if we if we're on that thread, have a you have a predominant team, right. And they're doing really well. And then you have this losing streak where for years they're floundering, right? You don't see them moving to a new stadium and hope that that's going to fix things.

00;19;42;17 - 00;20;02;26
Hank Hodde
No, they stay there and they defend their home field. Right. And that's what these folks are doing. They're not saying, oh, you know, we need to get out of these this hurricane track or called the bowling alley. Right. Like they're there. They're they stay that's their home. And just figure this out over generations how to deal with it, you know.

00;20;02;26 - 00;20;20;17
Hank Hodde
And that's I think that's another thing, too. It's it's a generation final now institutional knowledge. Right. And kids learn from their parents. It's like, all right, storm hit, the sun's up. Let's get to work.

00;20;20;22 - 00;20;46;09
Hal Needham
It's passed down. I wanted to ask you, too, about building with concrete. Right. So a lot of these places have as one of their main building resources is sand. And that relates in the building with concrete. I live on a barrier island in Texas where a lot of our historic homes are built out of wood. Right. And and you could almost make an argument that a more plentiful resource here where I live in Galveston, the sand and concrete would fit better, let alone be more resilient.

00;20;46;09 - 00;20;59;17
Hal Needham
Why do you think we see so much wood based construction along the Gulf Coast in Florida? Is it just more of a preference thing, a history and culture thing? Why do we see that when in some cases it's not as resilient as building out of concrete?

00;20;59;17 - 00;21;28;19
Hank Hodde
I think it's a cost thing. And, you know, it's not like we see a lot of large scale concrete manufacturing plants all over in the U.S. I mean, a lot of it is imported. I the other thing to keep in mind, too, is like historic homes and structures. That's a different type of wood. That's solid natural wood that was harvested from forests that have been there for hundreds of years.

00;21;28;19 - 00;21;48;04
Hank Hodde
It's there are hardy indents in the larger size, you know, a 4x4 or four by two used to actually be four inches by four inches, not, you know, cut down, you know, by the saw blade. And now we have these fast growing trees and, you know, we grow them too, length quickly so we can cut them and get them on a market.

00;21;48;04 - 00;22;12;02
Hank Hodde
It's a weaker wood, you know, And that's why we see, you know, hurricane clips and ties and, you know, some, you know, structural additions to the wood, you know, fasteners, you know, help us strength at those weak points. Right. But the I mean, the other thing, too, is that wood is, you know, susceptible to mold. Sure. More easily than concrete.

00;22;13;11 - 00;22;29;23
Hank Hodde
You know, you have to insulate it. There's a lot of things that can get wet, you know, concrete. You can, you know, slap on stucco and, you know, when it gets wet, you just cut and dry it off, you know, wood You know, we've seen it again and again, you know, wood frame structures. You got to mark and go and open up their walls.

00;22;30;03 - 00;22;34;08
Hank Hodde
So, I mean, there's I don't know, I guess that's my take on it.

00;22;34;08 - 00;22;44;22
Hal Needham
Yeah. So sometimes I hear the old timers say, man, back in the day, like late 1800s or early 1900s, construction was built so much better. It sounds like in a sense there's some truth to that.

00;22;45;09 - 00;23;14;14
Hank Hodde
Oh, yeah. I mean, today it's more of an assembly line, right? And and I don't think it's any secret that, like, that old school craftsmanship has kind of been lost. You see it in cabinet, you see it in more of the finer details, cabinetry and, you know, inside furnishings and things like that. But yeah I mean the stick built homes were really good at it, you know, for development purposes.

00;23;14;14 - 00;23;22;03
Hank Hodde
But we're also learning and doing research to make that type of home stronger, which, you know, which is a good progression and advancement for our field.

00;23;22;15 - 00;23;42;06
Hal Needham
Yeah, for sure. That's a really helpful perspective. When you look at the professional landscape within sustainability and resiliency, what do you see? I mean, do you see organizations from different sectors working together really well? Do you see a lot of people just siloed in their own little group? I mean, how do you see the landscape? I'm curious because you have a lot of experience in these different sectors.

00;23;42;06 - 00;23;43;11
Hal Needham
I'm curious what you see.

00;23;44;19 - 00;24;13;25
Hank Hodde
Yeah, it's a it's a great field to be in because there's tremendous growth opportunities. And the more connections we make with other sectors, other professions, you know, the more collectively we're going to work together. You know, it's interesting, when I work for Noah, I became a certified floodplain manager so I could start to work with floodplain managers because they're in their own little association and, you know, professional circle.

00;24;14;05 - 00;24;45;16
Hank Hodde
Right? And I wanted to tap into that and work with them. But now, you know, those Floodplain Manager Association meetings, they're asking for folks like me to present their own resiliency, right? So the silos and professional barriers and circles are being broken down. There is a lot of collaboration and and it's great because those are more traditional foundational modes of government and services and resiliency.

00;24;45;16 - 00;25;19;28
Hank Hodde
Sustainability is new, right? So we have to, you know, appreciate what's there, collaborate so we can all move forward together. There's a lot of nonprofits and associations that are that are getting into this world. There's a lot of, you know, homegrown organic citizen groups that are starting to learn more about it and want to interact with, you know, with governments on, you know, preserving land, you know, like we're not developing on this huge piece of land because it's a coastal hazard area and it'll make them more susceptible to storm surge.

00;25;19;28 - 00;25;30;05
Hank Hodde
There is traction. And, you know, I think that there's some economic drivers right now that are really starting to have people wake up like, you know, like insurance.

00;25;30;05 - 00;25;46;06
Hal Needham
How does this look in Pinellas County? Like you mentioned, these different types of groups like floodplain managers, different nonprofits. Is there a time where, like everyone meets together for a workshop or do you have events? I mean, how does this work in your county for people to come to the table and talk and listen and share ideas?

00;25;46;18 - 00;26;21;08
Hank Hodde
Yeah, good question. So we have a regional resilience coalition that is managed and facilitated by our Regional Planning Council and the impetus for this was what was happening in Southeast Florida with the Southeast Regional Climate Compact. And so you saw Miami-Dade, Broward, Monroe County, the Keys rally together 12 years ago, 13. So to get a hold of this stuff because they were starting to see like tidal impacts, then they had the hurricanes.

00;26;21;16 - 00;26;46;02
Hank Hodde
We're starting to see that stuff now, right? So we're like, there's some lag time, which is fortunate for us that we can learn from them. So these regional coalitions have really started to blossom and it brings together the different professionals, you know, through, you know, more regular, consistent like work group meetings. We pull in consultants, we, you know, pull in private sector professionals to get their insight.

00;26;46;25 - 00;26;52;03
Hank Hodde
And then we do have annual meetings where we all come together. And in those annual meetings, we include elected officials.

00;26;52;21 - 00;27;15;09
Hal Needham
Yeah, you know, I'm a big fan of these regional coalition meetings because you're bringing in enough people with professional diversity, some geographic diversity that you're seeing a wide range of issues. But then it's not on this national level either, where you go to one of these mega conferences and you get lost in it. It it seems like it's it's at a scale that you can meet a couple of times a year and have discussions and move things along.

00;27;15;27 - 00;27;44;15
Hank Hodde
Yeah. And we're only as good as we are working too, like collectively. So we know that water doesn't care about boundaries and jurisdictions, zones, ordinances. So, you know, we're trying to, you know, amend or alter what we do so that in all of this and all that space so that, you know, everyone benefits, you know, not just one particular jurisdiction or no city.

00;27;45;08 - 00;28;08;07
Hal Needham
Hank, earlier in this podcast, we talked about the back to back hurricanes in 2004, Hurricanes Frances and Jeanne in southeast Florida in 2004 wasn't even done yet. Ivan hit the panhandle as a Cat three. You had Charley, south of you as a cat for 2004 is a terrible year. Oh five also had a bunch of impacts with with Rita down in the Keys Wilma south of you, Katrina coming across the state.

00;28;08;15 - 00;28;27;00
Hal Needham
I mean and then we talked about Michael 2018 to the west of you in the panhandle. When you start looking at these tracks on the map, you start to say, well, Pinellas County and Tampa metro area, Tampa Saint Pete Metro area has been very lucky. It's been, what, over really a hundred years since you've been struck. Yeah. I mean, how does that affect the local psychology?

00;28;27;00 - 00;28;44;25
Hal Needham
I mean, you see a lot of bad things happening in the state, but then in your smaller region there, you've been very lucky. How does that affect people's perception of Hurricane risk? Do they do they say, hey, a lot of bad stuff's happening in the state, it's going to come to us? Or do people kind of take this viewpoint, Hey, we're just we're never going to get hit.

00;28;44;25 - 00;28;45;19
Hal Needham
They always miss us.

00;28;46;02 - 00;29;16;07
Hank Hodde
Yeah. What's that saying? It only takes one. One big one. Yeah, you're absolutely right. You know, the interesting thing about all those hits that you mentioned is that Floridians stayed. They rallied like, all right, you know, this is the natural course of things. It's where we live. And but in recent years, we did have Irma that went up to the middle of the state and impacted us.

00;29;16;07 - 00;29;51;06
Hank Hodde
Hurricane Ida was a hurricane for like a few hours overnight like that. It skirted the coast, but it brought in storm surge. And but that was a those were more localized impacts and not an entire community. And but I mean, we did see people who had to leave their homes, you know, substantial damage. Sure. We got 3 to 5 feet of storm surge from eight to and, you know, we didn't get a federal disaster declaration, so we didn't get FEMA money.

00;29;51;06 - 00;30;30;26
Hank Hodde
We didn't even get personnel the state in and responders just us, you know, And it's like, wow, this is a moment of resiliency. But the fact that you make about us not having the major hit also makes us the most vulnerable. And when you look at, you know, U.S. national, global economic studies from reinsurers and other major modelers, you know, climate outfits, think tanks, you know, we're one of the most vulnerable because there's just so much dense population because, you know, in some respect, hurricanes provide a natural balance of things.

00;30;32;02 - 00;31;13;18
Hank Hodde
And yeah, so it it's tough because people are cognizant, but since they haven't gone through it, it's a little bit harder to get the message across. But there's little outfits and communities that have got impacted recently where we're trying to leverage that to tell a good story of impact and recovery. And we were like, So moving forward. But, you know, we're I think I think the private sector impact is are also starting to get to people and they're starting to realize like, oh, something is awry.

00;31;14;00 - 00;31;17;25
Hank Hodde
So something's weird here because I can't find insurance.

00;31;18;06 - 00;31;28;11
Hal Needham
Yeah, we're seeing that really the insurance availability or even rates. I hear people saying, Oh my gosh, my insurance rate just doubled in the last several years or something crazy like that. It's hitting people.

00;31;28;22 - 00;31;42;22
Hank Hodde
It's not just doubling. You have insurers vacating the geography Like we're not even we're not even riding there anymore. And that needs to be told it a little bit more. It's like our risk is too high. Yeah, you know, they're pulling out for their book of business.

00;31;43;21 - 00;31;47;12
Hal Needham
Yeah, they're just completely pulling out of whole areas, right? They're like, Oh, we don't right there anymore.

00;31;47;18 - 00;31;59;01
Hank Hodde
Yeah. So, I mean, my it's really hard to state as, like, a goal and a mission, but I want to mitigate so well and be so resilient that we get insurers to come back to this market.

00;31;59;23 - 00;32;11;17
Hal Needham
I love that. So maybe you say, Hey, our climatology hasn't changed, but our our building codes have changed or we've done all of these things to really mitigate against this loss. So come on back in. We've lowered our risk.

00;32;11;17 - 00;32;11;24
Hank Hodde
Yep.

00;32;12;16 - 00;32;31;06
Hal Needham
Yeah, I love that. Hank, before I forget, I wanted to ask you, too. You mentioned a few smaller storms like Ada. Some of these storms people haven't heard about. And so, you know, for the big Hurricane Michael, Hurricane Katrina, here comes state money, federal money grants, all this stuff. But for some of these smaller storms you mentioned, you kind of had to rely on yourselves to recover through that.

00;32;31;16 - 00;32;41;29
Hal Needham
Can you share like what is Pinellas do to kind of help themselves move forward on some of these projects? You know, we hear about grants, we hear about federal programs. What about just what you're doing locally to kind of help yourselves there on the ground?

00;32;42;13 - 00;33;01;08
Hank Hodde
Yeah, I'll tell an interesting story about what we had to do after Ada. When you get these major storms, I mean, before it even hits landfall, you get a presidential declaration and we got, you know, all the trucks, you know, private sector, public, you know, going down the highways. Right. We've seen that there was nothing. It was crickets.

00;33;01;08 - 00;33;21;09
Hank Hodde
And I mean, we didn't even get volunteers, right? They weren't mobilized. Then the state was like, well, there's no federal declaration, so we're not going to activate, you know, our people. And of course, we brought them down here. We're like, no, people are had to leave their homes. You know, they got either two inches or 18 inches water or more.

00;33;21;20 - 00;33;44;11
Hank Hodde
We had the damage assessment data and we had to be really, really calculated with that and verify the the impacts, the depth and how photos. We barely eked out a declaration with the Small Business Administration so that people could get loans and, you know, some of these yeah, some of these people, they own their homes. They didn't you know, they weren't required to have insurance.

00;33;45;14 - 00;34;09;14
Hank Hodde
They didn't have it. And, you know, here they are out of the out of their home. You know, they didn't have that policy coverage and their insurance to, you know, get, you know, alternate living expenses. They couldn't cover the loss. And so they had to go get a loan from the SBA and help fill that gap and like barely got that for the community.

00;34;09;14 - 00;34;12;23
Hal Needham
So this was almost a flood event that just fell through the cracks, is what you're saying.

00;34;12;23 - 00;34;14;28
Hank Hodde
Not there cracks. Yeah, you know. Yeah.

00;34;14;28 - 00;34;23;02
Hal Needham
Like no, but like it could have been like it's it's big enough that it's flooding homes but not big enough to really get on the radar for different types of assistance and great.

00;34;23;03 - 00;34;44;13
Hank Hodde
Yeah I mean yeah so the assistance had come from us, you know, so it was a localized event and in the future so and, and what happened is 3 to 5 feet of storm surge pushed up at high tide overnight. And and, you know, there there were rescues, there was everything. Right. But like, it didn't make national news.

00;34;44;13 - 00;35;12;07
Hank Hodde
So the and what we're worried about, what I'm worried about really is this is, I think, an indicator for the future with tidal flooding. Yeah. And I'm really concerned about that because there's going to be, you know, the hurricanes, you know, acute and major. But the tidal flooding is going to be chronic, persistent, you know, where way and infrastructure you're going to have.

00;35;12;15 - 00;35;43;19
Hank Hodde
And there's no like I don't flooding coverage, so to speak. Some of that some of the insurance is based off, you know, a named storm, for instance. Sure. Title title is not named. You can't go get insurance for the October King flood, you know, KING tide. And and what we saw with Ada, with our vulnerability assessment, work modeling, sea level rise projections, is that storm surge that took place is what we may see consistently throughout the year in 2017.

00;35;44;19 - 00;36;03;17
Hal Needham
Yeah, And, you know, these minor events happen so frequently. And then, you know, it's like these minor events happen frequently, but now they're they're coming up to the level of what used to be a more moderate flood, 3 to 5 feet. So all of a sudden that's, you know, just a foot or two of sea level rise. All of a sudden you're getting your four and five foot storm surge is what used to be maybe two feet.

00;36;03;26 - 00;36;20;00
Hal Needham
And so all of a sudden that's inundating buildings and that that kind of thing can happen, like you said, without a big name storm. It just you get a strong onshore wind or maybe you're on the fringe of a bigger storm that hits Apalachicola or something like that. And suddenly you have 80 houses that are flooded or something like that could happen.

00;36;20;11 - 00;36;46;25
Hank Hodde
Then you talk about these huge precipitous ocean events in a highly developed, dense area, and it's high tide. There's nowhere for the water to go. So it just blows up and, you know, people flood that way. It's so but it was a huge lesson learned for us. And, you know, we're trying to alter, you know, our approach for not just, you know, resilient infrastructure and education, but also emergency management.

00;36;48;25 - 00;37;05;22
Hal Needham
Yeah. And probably response to these. Like you said, it can be a downpour with a high tide and all of a sudden you have a lot of flooding. And again, it's maybe not really hitting the larger national media at all. Like people you talk to family in other states they would be like, what are you talking about? We didn't know there was a flood and all of a sudden you're like, no, we've we're underwater.

00;37;06;03 - 00;37;29;16
Hank Hodde
Yeah. You know, I talked about you asked about my position and what I see, you know, I talked about it being a growth, you know, and that's like I know a lot about this locally because not as the resilience coordinator, but I got tapped to be our emergency operations center recovery director. And so, you know, I oversee and report out on damage assessments and our whole community approach.

00;37;29;16 - 00;37;52;13
Hank Hodde
And, you know, how are you know, how does our preparedness and response efforts lead into long term recovery if we have to go that route? And so the you know, there's going to I'm hopeful that there's going to be an evolution of emergency management with that resiliency lens, because we may see a lot of events that aren't going to get a declaration and we have to take care of it locally.

00;37;52;14 - 00;37;53;05
Hank Hodde
There's no one else.

00;37;53;18 - 00;38;11;19
Hal Needham
That's that's a really good point. And with rising seas, right, like, again, this two or three foot storm surge, all of a sudden it's higher than it used to be. It's flooding things, but that's not hitting Washington, D.C. at all. You're maybe not getting a larger declaration. So what you're saying is this may fall on the local municipalities to take care of themselves.

00;38;11;19 - 00;38;16;25
Hal Needham
There may not be outside assistance that arrives, especially for these these smaller and middle sized events.

00;38;17;03 - 00;38;20;20
Hank Hodde
Yeah, what I'm really saying is it already is right.

00;38;21;11 - 00;38;22;26
Hal Needham
You're saying like you're already seeing this.

00;38;23;27 - 00;38;46;22
Hank Hodde
Yeah, well, we just did, you know there's after Irma there's some neighborhoods in, in the Keys that had permanent tidal inundation for 90 days. Wow. Yeah. And you know, you've got areas in Miami that mix the news tidal flooding, rain event. No, Now we're seeing this in other parts of the country. D.C., I think just got some last night, you know, and so and so.

00;38;48;10 - 00;39;10;03
Hank Hodde
Yeah. And and again, there's an impact to people. The state and feds aren't coming in until I think a component of resilience is also not relying on them as much to have a declaration and you know, all the people just to swoop in and the phones, you know, I mean, that's a whole impetus for, you know, mitigation and adaptation beforehand.

00;39;10;03 - 00;39;22;26
Hank Hodde
And luckily, we have a lot of money coming our way to do that stuff and we need to grab that opportunity. But it takes foresight and and know how in the moment to take advantage of that stuff for sure.

00;39;22;26 - 00;39;52;03
Hal Needham
And that leads into another question I wanted to ask you, Hank, as far as like resources, like what are some resources people can find if people may be listening to this podcast in a coastal community or they may be in Iowa, they're listening, they're saying, Hey, I want to make my community more resilient. Can you direct them to any, like online resources, any any websites, podcasts, videos or anything that you could recommend to for people to take the next action step and, you know, move towards making themselves more resilient in their community as well?

00;39;53;14 - 00;40;23;02
Hank Hodde
Yeah, there's a lot of resources. I try to be resource agnostic. I think it's something that I, I really honed in on is get in contact in, in a loop with your local management office, you know, and get, you know, we have an app called ready Pinellas get the app, get the newsletter, read the website, you know, see what they're putting out and then, you know, get recommendations for what you can do at home.

00;40;23;16 - 00;40;45;28
Hank Hodde
What is home hardening look like? What is a preparedness kit look like something easy that I think it's hard for folks to keep, you know, just a box laying around every year for an event. But there's simple adaptations like you can have like a stack of totes and or bins, whatever you home and, you know, write your supplies on the side of it.

00;40;45;28 - 00;41;06;27
Hank Hodde
So when something's come in, you see the less than the side of a bin and you throw the stuff in it and evacuate. Right? And so, you know, it's a grab. I think that's the easiest thing to do. And then you go to your local government and you go to the commission meetings or city council or you go to the officials and ask like, Hey, what are we doing to safeguard this community?

00;41;06;27 - 00;41;41;05
Hank Hodde
What are we spending? Can we do more? You know, like are are we safe? And, you know, I'm hoping, you know, we're planning on we are altering our approach for our are large scale capital projects and we're we're looping in adaptation and mitigation principles for future flooding conditions that will enhance the design and engineering of that capital infrastructure to be more resilient.

00;41;41;17 - 00;42;07;28
Hank Hodde
And either, you know, I hope that our residents appreciate our expenditure on that, and that's a wise use of tax money in my mind. And I, I want to get to the point where they appreciate that as well and encourage more of it, you know, and once we do that stuff internally within our institution, that then we can even take advantage of all the grants.

00;42;07;28 - 00;42;43;03
Hank Hodde
And so I think just be as local as possible, you know, get in the know and, you know, encourage your neighbors, take inventory of what's on your street. We've got chainsaws. He's got, you know, gas, he's got a big freezer full of meat or whatever. And I mean, resilience and recovery happens first at the neighborhood scale. And so, you know, get your unit together, maybe meet annually, tap into your highway, work with your government officials, show up at the meetings, volunteer, be a stakeholder for surveys or committees.

00;42;43;18 - 00;43;10;12
Hank Hodde
I think that's, you know, one of the real first one. And then you start to expand your knowledge and you see, Oh, well, this nonprofit out there has a really good guide for home hardening or know resilient construction. I mean, all that stuff is out there. There's very simplified material from, you know, we're going to SBP is one flash Smart Home America and Habitat for Humanity.

00;43;10;19 - 00;43;27;17
Hank Hodde
I mean, they're they're they're faith based organizations. They're there's really a good momentum in that. And but once you get that local knowledge and know what the gaps are, then it's easier to figure out what the other resources are that simplify things.

00;43;27;17 - 00;43;45;25
Hal Needham
So yeah, I think I really love that local focus. I think that really empowers people, right, to to talk to people in their neighborhood, to go to these local meetings, whether it's city council, Emergency management, just have these conversations locally. I think that gives people more power than just going to a national website or watching things on YouTube.

00;43;45;25 - 00;43;57;00
Hal Needham
Right. Because it's not necessarily like we just need more information. Some of this stuff is like, okay, what do we do with the information we already have and how do we take action items and steps to actually help protect ourselves?

00;43;57;00 - 00;44;20;00
Hank Hodde
Yeah, so just one more plug is your local government does more for you than any other government, right? And so you may not know it and you know, I think I'm hoping another evolution in my world is that resiliency is a service, much like maintaining a road or providing water, you know, or emergency management or in times of disaster.

00;44;20;00 - 00;44;43;13
Hank Hodde
It's all looped together in my mind. And yeah, so you can ask like what services you providing to safeguard our community. Okay, if you don't have that, how do we get it? Yes, I will approve this tax referendum for $0.01 to go towards mitigation, you know, yes, you should have this extra staff person to go get grants from the federal government, you know, just things like that.

00;44;43;13 - 00;44;53;23
Hank Hodde
I mean, I think, you know, buy in for what the local government, you know, wants to do or what may be hesitant, you know, because of pushback. I mean, you know, push forward.

00;44;54;13 - 00;45;13;03
Hal Needham
Yeah. It sounds like in Pinellas, too, you're looking locally. You're looking at how you can use funds from local taxation, but then you're also keeping an eye on federal grants. You're kind of doing both because I see sometimes people are just thinking 100% about grants. They're not thinking about what they're doing locally. So I really like this perspective that you have both internally and externally.

00;45;13;16 - 00;45;37;15
Hank Hodde
That's a turn that I've taken with my position. You know, we're fortunate. We've had something called Penny for Pinellas. It's a $0.01 tax referendum on sales and it's not just local folks. Actually more most of that money comes from our tourism and that $0.01 that we get, you know, annually over a ten year tax record referendum vote goes back into the community.

00;45;37;23 - 00;46;01;00
Hank Hodde
And so that's what we use for our infrastructure and our upgrades in our shelters and, you know, affordable housing and economic development. I mean, flood control, erosion, all of it land acquisition. And so my take on this now is we need to use that money first, you know, and then leverage that to get the grants. That's the tactical approach.

00;46;01;00 - 00;46;16;08
Hank Hodde
And yeah, if you're if you're just relying on grants, you're going to be relying on Congress and federal appropriations and the wise use of that money from from, you know, federal government and know there's there's great stuff happening there. Don't don't get me wrong, but we're spending money on the ground every single day.

00;46;16;28 - 00;46;20;27
Hal Needham
When you said penny for Pinellas, is that a penny on the dollar or is that a penny per purchase?

00;46;21;17 - 00;46;58;26
Hank Hodde
It's a penny per purchase on the dollar. So now 6%, 6% sales tax on any purchase that goes to the state, it's divvied up. We have an extra cent, so we have seven. And so that goes back into our coffers to distribute for infrastructure and services throughout our community. And these are large scale projects. So that money spent every day, you know, on the ground and in Pinellas County, even though we get that one, that $0.01 from people from from around the entire country, I mean, we have almost a million residents here, but we make 14 million visitors.

00;47;00;09 - 00;47;21;14
Hal Needham
Well, we touched on some seriously deep and insightful concepts in this week's podcast. I wanted to address two main topics. I loved when Hank talked about how disaster prone communities in the Caribbean find a way to build better because it's more difficult for them. Move away. Think about it. If you live on an island or a small area with limited space, you can't just move inland.

00;47;21;14 - 00;47;51;13
Hal Needham
You have to find a way to build more resilient where you live. I like this concept because I feel we can build better, particularly in hazard prone areas that are vulnerable to hurricanes and repetitive floods. I often hear people suggest we need to retreat from the coast, we need to move inland. And except for a few cases like where saltwater is currently washing over low lying coastline to our islands, I feel we can still prosper along the coast if we plan and build better coastlines, provide an amazing quality of life and often a robust economy.

00;47;51;20 - 00;48;09;01
Hal Needham
This is not just about tourism, but services that help the rest of the country. For example, a lot of our energy is developed along the coast and let's say you buy bananas or a tree in Oklahoma City. It didn't just drop from the sky. These products or components of these products were likely shipped through a major port like Houston, Texas.

00;48;09;17 - 00;48;29;12
Hal Needham
The second concept I wanted to comment on was Hank's focus on getting more involved locally. He mentioned how they how to handle flood recovery locally for a medium sized flood. I guess it was flooding houses, but it did not qualify for federal assistance. They had to handle it locally. And Hank said that no government will help you as much as your local government.

00;48;29;12 - 00;48;53;20
Hal Needham
I love that quote. He encouraged us to be engaged with our local emergency management department, sign up for local government newsletters and participate in city council meetings. I love the posture he took as he suggested these things. He said that we should question what is being done, but not from a critical standpoint. If you listen closely to his approach, it involves engagement and dialog, followed up with questions about how we can do better.

00;48;54;00 - 00;49;22;12
Hal Needham
Hanks and Hanks vision for this involves civic engagement and a desire for more people, even the general public, to get more involved in civic dialog about how they and their communities can be more resilient. This is really empowering because it's something that we all can do to help ourselves and our local communities. We can be involved, we can ask questions, but not from a position of criticism, from a position of OC, really want a dialog with us and be involved so we can all do better.

00;49;22;22 - 00;49;44;19
Hal Needham
Hank, thank you so much for taking time to come on the podcast and sharing your expertise with us. Really deep stuff, very beneficial things I think that our listeners will really love. I look forward to seeing you in person at the Gulf of Mexico. Alliance Climate and Resiliency Community of Practice meeting in October in Sarasota, Florida. That's an event that you, our listeners can participate in as well.

00;49;44;22 - 00;50;04;24
Hal Needham
It brings professionals from around the region together to discuss how coastal communities can become more resilient. That's called the Gulf of Mexico Alliance. It's the Climate and Resiliency Community of Practice annual meeting in Sarasota, Florida. It's open. You can come to this and dialog with us. I'm going to be there. Hank's going to be there, and we're going to have a great meeting in early October in Sarasota.

00;50;05;04 - 00;50;12;12
Hal Needham
Thank you to our loyal listeners for your support of this podcast. I hope you enjoyed this episode and I'll catch you next week on the Geo Track podcast.

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